I think you articulate it pretty well here. I think a lot of this is founded in Manning hatred, pure and simple. The guy is overexposed, worshipped 24/7 on ESPN, and looks like the star of Deliverance 2, but no one stacks up to him numberswise. It doesn't matter who the coach is or who the personnel is, he gets it done. And he's won a Super Bowl, been to 2. -X-
I'm trying to follow Hobbes standards here.... Barry Sanders is a worse running back than Roger Craig, because his career playoff record is abysmal. Similarly, Willie Parker and his 2 Super Bowl rings, is a far greater running back than Pittsburgh native Curtis Martin, who never won the big one. -X-
Odd...I must have missed the paradigm shift when they started referring to RB's as Field Generals. P.S..You meant Hobbes standard...no plural... But Hey...Why justify your position when a straw man can hide the fact that you cant answer the question..iN the face of Brady,aikman,unitas,bradshaw, staubach, montana, how is Manning even in the discussion for GOAT?
Maybe you can tell us, how successful Manning has been without Tom Moore? But then since he hasn't that puts Warner ahead of him as well...since he's produced results in two different systems. And Brady as well.
You have to be kidding me, man... No matter what we say to defend Manning, you'll find some other bullshit excuse to use against him. I'm sure even Kurt Warner would agree that Peyton Manning is better than he is.
For the last time, look at his numbers - Peyton Manning has better stats than all of these guys and he's still got plenty of seasons left in him. If you have Dan Marino ranked at the top, then Manning should be there too.
Tom Landry started Craig Morton over Staubach way to long. Good coaches do stupid things. Reeves was essentially fired and rightfully so for not getting it with Elway. If you don't think Elway was great your smoking crack. The Bronco's were a mediocre team that was carried by Elway. Take a look at his WR and compare them to what Payton had to work with. Vance Johnson, Mike Young, Mark Jackson, Steve Watson. Not even in the same galaxy as the guys Payton has forgetting that they played outside. When the Bronco's had the goods to win on D coupled with a great running game even though Elway was way passed his prime they won big. Payton won nothing with James at tailback and James was a big time running back, drafted 4th over all and basically replaced Faulk.
Of course he has better stats look at the era. You know who also had incredible stats during Paytons era, Warner and Donte Culpepper. Guess what those stats were also put up in domes as were much of Brees's stats. Take a look at Brett Favre's stats this year. Brett Favre hasn't been a great all time QB for 10 years. You can't compare stats from the earlier era. No domes, no protected QB or WR different OL rules. Comparing stats from different era's is nonesense. What you do see from Payton consistently is inconsistency and coming up small in big games. That's a comparable stat.
I think Elway is far ahead of Manning but I think Manning has plenty of time to catch him and those in front of Elway. Kenton keith had one good game, there are a million players who have one good game. Cedric Houston had a 100 yd game in 2006- I guss that elevates Chad pennington? Elway spent the majority of his career w/ guys like Sammy Winder, Steve Sewell and gerald Willhite. He also succeeds in the reg season, he has a great reg season win % but he doesn't get the job done when the games are biggest. It does't matter what reeves tried to do, Elway took 3 average teams to Super Bowls before TD came along. We know TD was the main force in him winning 2 SBs but that doesn't mean anything b/c he proved he could get teams to the SB w/ not alot of talent around him. When I take a QB I do so w/ the idea he's going to win big for me. Ben has proven he can win the big game multiple times, it's not a coincidence that Pitt was knokcing on the door for over 10 years and they finally started winning SBs again when he got there. As far as marino, I have explainbed this many times. I feel he didn't have enough talent around him to win in January and one of the reasons I knock Peyton down a few pegs is b/c I feel he does have those tools. If I needed a big win and all things were equal I'd pick marino over Ben and manning even though marino never won a SB. This is why he gets overrated, people just look at the final #s. They see a 300 yd passing game but don't realize before he threw that pick he had 244 yds and oh yeah he THREW THE INT THAT COST HIS TEAM A CHANCE TO WIN! yes he was GOOD up until that point but when you make a play like that to cost your team a chance it's hard to say you had a good game overall. I weigh postseason more heavily but you have to include the reg season which is why Manning is even near the top 10. on your other point montana won SBs w/ 2 different HCs and took a Chiefs team to the AFC Title game. bill belichcik was on the chopping block until Tom Brady saved his career- check the record for BB w/ and w/o Brady: Bill Belichick w/o Tom Brady(7 seasons, 113 games): 51-62, 45% 1 playoff app 1-1 playoff record no div titles never advanced as far as AFC Title game WITH Tom Brady(8 seasons, 127 games): 97-30, 76% 7 playoff apps 14-4 record 7 division titles 5 AFC Title Games 4 AFC Titles 3 SB Titles Keep in mind that Belichick never made even a conf title game w/o Brady while Tony Dungy made one w/o Peyton. People who rely on fantasy #s will always take Manning but there's more to the position than jst #s especially when peyton has had the luxury of playing more than half his games in domes and has had elite weapons to throw to his entire career. Ben was terrible in his first SB(by the way Manning wasn't good in his first either even though they gave him a bogus MVP award he clearly didn't deserve) but he was great getting them to the SB. Ben 2005 SB run(3 games): 49-72, 680 yds, 7 TDs, 1 INT, 124.8 rating manning 2006 SB run(3 games):72-115, 787 yds, 2 TDs, 6 INTs, 66.8 rating
You can't even give credit when you're trying to pretend that you are giving him credit. Manning torched the Pats defense. That doesn't mean necessarily that the Pats defense choked the game away. I don't think our defense choked the game away this season when he did the same thing to us. You don't throw the ball away in that situation. Taking a sack is the right play vs throwing an incompletion. You either milk more time off the clock or force them to use a timeout. Throwing the ball away is the dumbest thing to do in that situation. His sack lost 4 or 5 yards. That's not the difference in the game. Furthermore he did not have "enough time" on that play. He had one read it wasn't there and he pulled the ball down. Before he could go to the second read he got hit. Why don't you give the blame on the tuck play to Brady then? Just admit your bias against Manning and move along.
What part of he played great that 2nd half do you not understand? You cannot take a sack at the 1 and give your P less room to punt in a situation where you are nursing a 3 pt lead. 4-5 yds in that situation is HUGE b/c it takes room away from the Punter. He only has about 10 yds to field and punt the ball. Move it 5 yards forward and he has his normal distance to catch and punt the ball so he isn't rushing. He had plenty of time on that play, when you can pump fake you have enough time. That is a situation where either it's open right away or it's not. I don't like manning b/c I think he is overrated but I HATE Brady yet I can admit he's better than Manning so that throws that theory out the window. The bias in this argument comes from you and your crush on peyton as whenever they win it's all peyton and whenever they lose it's everyone but peyton.
Then leave it as he played great. Why put in the added "New England's defense choked" when Manning simply out played them and your boy Brady. You don't throw the ball away in that position. He's expecting the back side to be blocked. He brought the ball down and was hit immediately after. Brady did the same thing in the 2001 AFCDG. Where's the outrage on your part? It's all a bunch of bull. You have a bias against Manning.
I don't remember adding that. I have always said Manning played great, I may have mentioned the D when someone like you tried to blame Brady for the loss. Brady was inside his 10 yd line nursing a 3 pt lead needing only a 1st down to win? You cannot take a sack in that situation. It sets up SD in FG range almost immediately. Not getting that 1st down cost them the game.
Brady had many opportunites in the 2nd half w/ great field position and only came away w/ FGs. According to your theory he SHOULD be blamed for the loss. So it's okay to take a big sack when you are trailing by three and trying to get into scoring range with time running out, but it's not okay take a sack when up by three which would run the clock but instead Manning should have thrown the ball into coverage possibly getting intercepted...Okay got it. :lol: If he throws the ball away the SD won't get the ball w/ great field position? You can't make this stuff up
He does get his share of the blame BUT the facts are the D blew a big lead and you are trying to blame Brady for the collapse. It was a miracle w/ that talent then they were even in that game let alone winning. When has manning ever lost a playoff game where his D blew a big lead or a late lead? You compare completely different situations. For Brady it was 1st and 10 at the oak 42 comparing 3rd and 2 from inside the Indy 10 up 3 needing one first down to end the game. You make no sense, it's as bad of a comparison as the INts for Tds that Warner threw vs. what Manning threw. Completely different situations. I didn't say SD wouldn't get the ball in great FP but they likely don't get inside the Indy 40. What you can't make up is comparing the '01 div rd vs. the '08 WC situations or the Warner INts vs. Manning's INTs. That's what you can't make up.
You don't throw the ball away and stop the clock. He had NO time as the defender came in unblocked. Yet you blame Manning for the sack. It's beyond ridiculous. If he does what you want him to do and throws an INT you blast him for it. If he throws the ball away and stops the clock and SD marches down for the GW TD you blast Manning for it. My point on the Brady tuck play is that Brady had no time and pumped and got hit. Manning had no time and pumped and got hit. It's not the QBs fault but using your logic it is, so why don't you blame Brady for getting hit on the tuck play? Throwing pick 6's are the same. It doesn't matter when they happen they still cost the team 6 points. Imagine Manning throwing the pick 6 from the goaline right before half; you would be killing him right now as the reason they lost the game. Your bias against Manning is so evident.
Scenario #1 3rd & 4 QB needs a 1st down to seal the game. He goes back to throw the ball, pumps and no one is open. Gets sacked because the back side TE misses a block. Scenario #2 3rd & 4 QB needs a 1st down to seal the game. He goes back to throw the ball, pumps and no one is open. Back side LB is picked up by the TE. QB scans to his 2nd option who gets open. QB passes the ball to him. Receiver catches the ball past the 1st down. Game over Scenario #3 3rd & 4 QB needs a 1st down to seal the game. He goes back to throw the ball, pumps and no one is open. Back side LB is picked up by the TE. QB throws the ball away stopping the clock. Punter punts the ball and the opponent starts their possession at the kicking teams 45 yard line. Opponent marches into FG territory and kicks game tying FG. Scenario #4 3rd & 4 QB needs a 1st down to seal the game. He goes back to throw the ball, pumps and no one is open. Back side LB is not picked up by the TE forcing the QB to throw the ball away stopping the clock. Punter punts the ball and the opponent starts their possession at the kicking teams 45 yard line. Opponent marches into FG territory and kicks game tying FG. Scenario #1 is what actually happened. Scenario #2 is what Manning was trying to do. Scenario #3 is showing what a missed opportunity it could have been to throw the ball away and Scenario #4 is what nyjunc thinks should happen.
There was plenty of time even if SD had no timeouts. They had almost 2 mins from the Indy 38, you don't think it would have been better w/ say 2:20 on the clock from around midfield? Time wasn't a huge factor at that point, SD had already spent all their TOs. If anything an incomplete pass gives manning more time when he gets the ball back. The Brady play in '01 and the Manning play in '08 were absolutely nothing alike. it's not even worth discussing. throwing pick 6's are not the same. How is throwing one early in the game where you have plenty of time to come back the same as throwing one late that seasls the game for the other team? Both are bad but one the game is over and the other you can come back. Your love for manning and bias against Brady is all that is evident. I am objective, I give Peyton plenty of credit which is something you cannot do for Brady.
That is a situation where a vet QB(the supposed best ever) needs to know it is open immediately or it's not. when it's not open right away scenario 4 is the best option. SD was alreayd out of timeouts, he took the sack and let the clock go down to 2 mins but SD got the ball at the Indy 38! he throws it away and 2:10-2:15 is on the clock for the punt, SD gets it back w/ just over 2 mins left and no timeouts needing another 10-15 yds to get into FG range. That is a huge difference. SD may have still tied it, they probably would have but they would have made it more difficult for them had he thrown it away. regardless of all that, if he leads his team to the 1st down the game is over. He couldn't do it.
It doesn't matter when they threw their Pick 6's. They both gave the opponent points! Its idiotic to think that Warner's two INTs that were returned didn't have the same affect on the game. They resulted in the difference in the game. If he didn't throw them he doesn't have to come from as far back. Had Manning done that you'd be all over him. You are far from objective when it comes to Manning. You blame him for every loss the Colts have had. The only credit I've seen you give Manning is one where you say: Earlier in that same post you mention how the Defense choked the game away. So you go out of your way to mention the Pick 6 that happened in the first half and basically say the same thing I’m saying about Warner. So why is it now okay that Warner threw pick 6’s earlier in the games but when Manning does it you say that he wouldn’t have needed the great 2nd half if he hadn’t thrown the pick 6 in the first half if we are all now learning that pick 6’s are meaningless in the first half? If Manning doesn’t march them down for the go ahead TD in the last minutes of the game (something you have claimed he has never done) and the pick 6 was the difference in the game you would be all over it. That is evident by the fact that you mention it here even though he was successful in the game! You have a bias against Manning.
