It matters to where our debate was going. You say that Clayton did not have other people taking away receptions. I am showing you there were MANY other targets that Marino could and did go with the ball. It doesn?t matter what their talent level was. It is a FACT that Marino distributed the ball to many other targets. If Warner doesn?t throw those 2 pick 6?s they win. He had to overcome a deeper hole later in the game because he threw TWO INTs that were returned for TDs. Those Pick 6?s aren?t Pick 3?s because they happened earlier in the game.
B/c he dumped off some passes to backs and TEs doesn't mean marino had real weapons. defenses worked to take away Duper and Clayton b/c they were the only guys who could do anything and they forced him to hit other rceivers- that doesn't make those receivers good. he never had a reggie Wayne, Dallas Calrk, Marvin harrison, Edge, Addai, faulk or even a Dominic Rhodes. We have no idea how that game ends, those picks didn't help but we don't know how the game plays out w/o those picks. Obviously they didn't help but again he led his team all the way back to tie or take the lead- did Peyton do that last Sunday?
There were other guys that Marino had to throw to and he used them. I would say the reason Wayne has more receptions is because defenses have to find a way to stop Clark and Harrison. This debate isn't about comparing Manning or Marino. It's Clayton and Wayne. Clayton and Duper were good receivers. Clayton is definitely the equal to Wayne. Did Peyton put them in a worse situation by throwing pick 6's earlier in the game? Throwing INTs that get returned for TDs are not less in value because they are thrown earlier. Warner wouldn't have had to lead them from as far back as he did if he didn't throw INTs that were returned for TDs. I would say the one he threw against Pitt cost them the game because they were going in for the score. That's a 14 point turnaround.
SL and Ari had half the games to come back from the pick 6, Indy had no shot. Not all pick 6's are created equal. So the pick 6 in the 1st half against pitt cost Ari the game but the 2 RZ INTs that cost Indy points against SD 2 years ago didn't cost Indy the game?
Did I ever say RZ INTs didn't cost Indy the game? Keep spinning that's all you do in this topic. Pick 6's are 6 points for the opponent no matter when they happen correct? You blast Manning but are giving Warner a pass because they happened earlier in the game. Warner threw an INT that was returned for a TD in two separate SBs. If he doesn't do that he has less of a mountain to climb later in the games correct? If he has less of a mountain to climb later in the games and puts up the same amount of points he wins correct? All pick 6's are equal no matter when they happen. They are even worse when they happen at the goaline. Ask Vinny vs. Bal '00 or Sanchez vs. NO in '09. They are at a minimum a 10 point swing and a possible 14 point swing.
And all his other throws were the only reason they were still in it. Seriously, this is ridiculous. Manning is a brilliant quarterback. He threw an interception - quarterbacks do it all the time. He didn't go from GOAT to JAG on one play.
Ronnie Lott would not like your post. :grin: All or most of the QBs who are in the GOAT conversation had great defenses, so I'm not sure why that only works against Brady's case. Most people say Montana is the GOAT, and I agree. But in his 4 SB runs, his defense was ranked #2 (1981), #1 (1984), #8 (1988), and #3 (1989) in the NFL. I didn't go through the same exercise for anyone else, but I think that validates my point. Manning is incredibly productive and will no doubt own most if not all of the significant passing records when he's done. But the current consensus pick for the GOAT - Montana - never threw for 4,000 yards in a season (cracked 3900 once), had a career high of 31 TDs in one season, and cracked 25 TDs six times. For comparison, Brady has three 4,000 yard seasons, threw for 50 TDs in '07, and has cracked the 25 TD mark five times in fewer seasons than Montana played. So in the end, it can't just come down to production. Otherwise Marino and Favre would be the only guys in the discussion. Ultimately you can't really add Manning or Brady to the mix until they're done playing... either guy could do great, or terrible, things that would change their legacies. But at this point I would say they're both a lock for the top 10 of all time. Brady is still playing with house money that Manning never had. And Manning's detractors point to the things that are so impressive about what he's done as the very same points for their criticisms. How can a guy who QBed his team to six consecutive 12-win seasons have only 9 playoff wins and one title to show for it? Manning and the Colts' regular season success works against them in the end because it keeps leading back to the same conclusion. I understand my opinion will be looked at as biased, and there's surely some truth to that! But the GOAT discussion will always include subjectivity. There's no clear-cut measuring system.
You made a million excuses why peyton didnt cost them in that game. I can't help you if you think the INTs for TDs that Warner and manning threw are the same.
No...I explained to you why one of the INTs should have been caught. I didn't say they didn't affect the outcome of the game. The picks they threw resulted in SIX points for the opponent. Is this incorrect?
Dod Warner lead them back to tie(vs. NE) and take the lead(vs. Pitt)? Did Manning lead Indy back to tie or take the lead against NO?
Would Warner have been as far behind if he didn't throw the Pick-6's and need as many points to come from behind? The score of SB XLIII at halftime could have been Cardinals 14-10 or at least tied 10-10. Instead it was 17-7.
Then maybe they don't score 16 in the 4th? who knows? the bottom line is he and his O erased the deficit they had.
A deficit they helped put themselves in with those Pick 6's. If Manning had the identical game as Warner did in SB 36 you'd be calling it a big choke job. If Manning threw a pick 6 at the goaline right before Halftime you'd be calling it another Manning failure. Yet you give Warner a pass. Your bias against Manning is very evident. Just call it what it is and stop spinning your arguments.
I never said warner was blameless but he showed guts bringing them back just as peyton did in '06 vs. NE(one of the rare times). if peyton did what Warner did I'd be saying the same things about him. I have no buias against manning the way you do about Brady. i give manning credit, I say he is a HOFer and a great QB. i don't try to diminish every success he has had unlike you w/ Brady. I just speak the facts w/ what manning has done in big games. It amazes me that you can see the Warner INTs and see the manning INT and think they are alike at all. Warner won a SB and got a deserving SB MVP award and he led 2 more teams to SBs- the rams were a joke of a franchise and the Cards were the biggest joke of a franchise. Warner also achieved more in less time as he was a full time starter for about 5-6 years while manning has been a full time starter for 12 years. Who would you rather have in a big game- manning or warner?
If Manning threw an INT at the goaline at all never mind one that was returned for a TD you would be all over him. Don't even try to deny you would. How many times have you blamed Manning when their Offense didn't put up their average points. But you give Warner and Brady passes. Are you serious you want to deny a bias against Manning? Every single Colts failure you put the entire blame on Manning. You've even gone so far as to blame Manning for being sacked when the back side TE completely missed his block. You blame Manning for the Patriots controlling the ball in the 2nd half of their 2004 AFCDG. You've blamed Manning for the kicker missing a GT FG. You've blamed Manning for a RB dropping a pass the should have been caught. You ignore the pressure he's been under in some of these playoff games (vs. Tenn, vs. Pitt etc.) You don't give him credit for the 2006 AFCCG - rather you blame NE's defense for blowing the game. I don't think Manning has had a great postseason career. But he does not deserve nearly the blame you put on him. Your bias is evident by the fact that you give praise to those who make similar mistakes and those who are lucky to have been bailed out by their kicker.
If he did that and didn't overcome it I'd be all over him, if he brought his team back and they were ahead late or tied late and his D blew it I'd give him a pass but that has never happened w/ him. he has never led a late drive to tie or take the lead only to watch his D blow it. I never put all the failures on manning. I think he's most responsible, his failures in the big spot cost his team BUT it is never on one person. I have explained that to you a million times. I thought he was playing really well until that drive where he couldn't handle the pressure of the SB and threw the pick. There were plenty of things that happened that were not his fault in that game but that INT drive was on him and it cost his team a chance to win. I didn't blame him for getting sacked, I blamed him for not leading Indy to the game clinching 1st down which he should have been able to do. He led them to 3 pts in the '04 game, NE may have controlled the clock but he still had more than enough possessions and TIOP to lead his O to points and he didn't do it. I have said over and over how great he was in the 2nd half of that 2006 AFC Title Game. I give him credit when he deserves it, I don't make excuses like you where you say it ws Brady's teammates who did it and not Tom. You make fun of Brady for leading his team 80 yds to take the lead late in SB XLII yet you offer excuses for manning throwing the back breaking INT 2 years later. The bottom line is Brady has gotten it done more often than not in the biggest games a the same cannot be said for manning. we saw on Sunday Night exactly why Brady is the better QB.
Stop with the BS. If Manning threw an INT at the goaline you would be all over him. I don't make fun of Brady for the drive in SB XLII. I criticize him for only leading them to 14 pts in the game when they averaged well over 30. On that drive it was all short passes. I call it like I see it and give credit to Welker and Moss for that drive. Brady did his part as well but failed for the entire rest of the game. The backbreaking INT in this years SB Wayne cut his route short. There was clearly a miscommunication but you immediately blame Manning on that. If Wayne continues on the route he makes the catch. You have blamed NE's defense and have called out Manning's poor first half in the 2006 AFCCG. The fact that you have called out Manning's poor first half in a game he WON proves w/o a shadow of a doubt that you would blast Manning if he did the same thing Warner did in those two SB's. The reason they don't get the first down in the 2008 AFCWC was because he was sacked on the 3rd down play. You have BLAMED Manning saying "He had time to pump". If he forces that ball in that situation and it gets INT'ed then you go to that reason to blame Manning. The defense still could have stopped the Chargers but they didn't.
If he overcame the huge mictake I wouldn't hold it against him just like I don't hold the Samuel INT in the '06 title game against him. So do you criticize manning for only leading his high powered O to 17 points last week? If Wayne continues thre's no way he makes the acth, the DB made a great play. he outsmarted Peyton in the games biggest moment and it's funny how you blame Wayne b/c Peyton never makes a mistake and when they have success it's all b/c of him but when they fail it's never on him. he can't get sacked on that play, he has to get the first down. he still had time to make a quick decision or get rid of it but instead not only didn't he convert he made his P punt from the back of the EZ. Pretend Brady did that and let me know what you'd think. The D still could have stopped the Chargers:rofl2: They got the ball at the Indy 38! They did a great job to keep them out of the EZ and force OT. maybe if Peyton and his high powered O scored more than 7 pts the 2nd half they wouldn't have needed that 1st down? Just to recap, SD gets the ball on the Indy 38 and it's the Indy D's fault they allowed a FG but the Giants get the ball on their 17 and their D doesn't get blame:lol: But I'm the one w/ the bias.
