I don't hate Clemens the person...but i hate Clemens the player......he's had ample time to develop into a viable QB....and has shown no such improvement. I challenge you to find any improvement in his game whatsoever. And the argument that he rode the bench for such a long period of time is bogus....he's had his chance on numerous occasions......he JUST DOESN'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES. How am I attacking you?....i took a dig at your avatar.....we're all subject to the same ribbing. Fuck, People on this board think I look like Clemens for christs sakes...it's all in good fun....grow a thicker skin, BB.....stop whining.
Are you kidding me? Deserves got nothing to do with it. He's making plenty of money, and I do and have cut him slack by saying he's got a lot of promise. I see nothing wrong whatsoever with not only seeing where he needs to improve but taking a wait and see attitude whether he does. I don't criticize every little nuance. What I have had a hard time with is I think we can all agree, if we stop and think about it, a point that gets lost in the are you for or against this or that that passes for arguments sometimes on these threads. The point concerns playing Sanchez right on through his rookie season. This was something that the CS chose to do halfway through the pre-season games. The notion of doing so is that he would make mistakes but improve over time. Can we agree on that? Well in fact, whether as some think it was the failure of the OC, or some other junior coach, or the lack of Ryan's involvement with the O, or perhaps not having a person on the staff better able to train young Qb's, it was fairly clear to me that just leaving him in there was not leading to positive results. I think that was an accurate assessment. Turns out Ryan must have felt the same way - how else can we interpret his saying he needed to get more involved, and the adoption of the color coding? The talk about simplifying the playcalling. I also recall others talking about even bringing someone like Jeff Garcia in here mid season to help Sanchez ( a move I was not in favor of). Don't the facts indicate that the way it was going had to be altered, at least somewhat? Over this period of time it was not merely Sanchez that was under discussion, but also the CS and how they were handling the situation. I think that is what I have been talking about, and many others here. I cannot agree these are not fit subjects for discussion merely because Sanchez is a rookie. I don't think you really think so, either.
It's funny how you like to make a lot of assumptions about me as if they are fact, yet you can't get right what I'm saying about you. I didn't say you felt Clemens was better than Chad or Sanchez, I said you take an aggressive stance against any fans who supported those QBs as if we're more interested in them than the team. But for some reason you're always there to defend the worst QB we've had this side of Brooks Bollinger. I didn't want Clemens to play over Chad because I didn't think he was as good, therefore gave us less chance to win, not more. You took that as me putting Chad's interest above the Jets, but what I wanted has proven to be the case--Chad proved he could still play, went and took a 1-15 team to the division title, Clemens still can't crack the lineup two years later. I want Sanchez to play over Clemens because I think he has more upside and more ability already now than Clemens has ever shown here, so now you want to paint me as a Sanchez fan boy putting him over the team. If I thought at any time Clemens was the best answer for the Jets I'd be all for him, but there hasn't been one single day he's been here since he was drafted that he has been our best QB or our best chance to win. Period.
I equate Clemens to Charlie Frye, Dan Orlovsky, Tim Hasselbeck. Because he wears green means nothing to me. I see for him for what he is.
Agreed...I believe that's the direction the CS has gone in. You would be correct here as well...my only contention is that Sanchez also needs to learn how to deal with adversity...remember, all this kid did in college was win....leaving him in there to take his lumps is all part of his development. He needs to learn how to deal with "losing". I wasn't on board with bringing in another QB....Garcia or anybody for that matter. There wouldn't have been enough time for somebody new to get acclimated to the playbook in time, to really make a difference. Of course there are other factors at work here .....the coaching staff is certainly accountable for how Sanchez's development is being handled and so forth. I guess I got my nose out of joint because people are trying to justify playing "Clemens" over "Sanchez" because their stats are similar.....and I'm here to say....you can't compare a guy who's played 12 games as a rookie with a guy who's been in the same system for 4 years....and can't crack the starting lineup because of his talent defeciency.
Does anyone think O'Connell was signed with the thought of letting Clemens walk next season and having O'Connell serve as the veteran BU? I could never figure out why we signed this kid but this kinda makes some sense. Thoughts?
In the off season I followed the challenge between these two guys. I had no real rooting interest, except it of course would have been great if Sanchez came in and played like The Second Coming, but no one really exepcted that from a rookie. Whoever won out was who we were going to defer to the CS as having chosen and presumably made the right move. So far so good. There was, however, at least on my part, a bit of a concern that if there were problems, it was going to be more difficult as a practical matter to sit him than if they had started Clemens, but... Then Sanchez appears to start off great, with some ball control issues, but otherwise a great start. Then... That's where I think the discussion here began to diverge. I never thought that MS lacked talent. The real concern is that if conditions and poor coaching were too adverse, that could be detrimental to his development. At some point, at least in theory, it could be SO detrimental that a Qb in such situation just might be better sitting and regrouping than continuing down the road of learning how NOT to do it. Meanwhile I was less leery of Clemens coming in temporarily than you and others were, to say the least. What should be obvious here is that the focus and concern was not on MS himself but on the way the team was handlng him and his situation. I think we all have to agree that is exactly why Ryan changed things up. The situation they put in place when the season opened needed to be altered. Meanwhile Sanchez got hurt, in large measure, Ryan obviously thinks, because he needed and still needs coaching in the area of protecting himself and his legs. The beginning of last week I thought it apparent that if the medical report so indicated, then MS was going to sit, at least one week, and that is what happened. I concede I said and thought that at least one bright side to this situation is we get to see what KC can do with this team and in particular this OL. Well, while others saw more of what they thought they saw before in a negative way, I saw more of a mixed bag, and pointed out that by many statistical measures all the "awful" things they attributed to Clemens were really not leaps and bounds different from what Sanchez had been doing. The context was not who was the better prospect in the medium, and certainly not long, term, but instead how we should view the team's prospects for winning the game. Which the Jets did. And despite the win when I came here Monday most of what I saw was more bitching about Clemens. I thought it was over the top and said so. I still do. But that doesn't mean I think Clemens is the better player. What I DO think we need to continue to be concerned about, although as WSW and others have pointed out, there have been promising signs with the changes Ryan brought to the Carolina game, is how the CS handles Sanchez's development. That really about covers it for now. I hope this all sounds more clear than it did earlier this week.
^ fair enough. And for the record...my bitching about Clemens was solely on his "play" and subpar skillset....I wanted to abstract my analysis of Clemens away from the game itself...and focus in on how Clemens was playing with a functional oline, if he was making the correct reads and decisions...etc etc. Because in other facets of the game (defense, Kicking game) the Jets played extremely well. I wasn't dumping on Clemens for the sake of "bitching about something negative"....that's not my style.....99% of the time I have a valid reason for my criticism (in my opinion anyways) :wink:
Well that's fair enough, too. I guess one other thing is I never really thought there was really a question or issue about Clemens taking over for any extended period. It was always a short term thing. Even the Atlanta game, if Sanchez sits, I have to assume it's for a reason, in this case his medical condition, primarily. We'll probably hear about this today. And if they play Clemens, I have to assume there will be more bitching and moaning about that, and despite the whining, the Jets will still hopefully win the game, as they did against TB. I on the other hand will hope Clemens has a good game, or at least not bad enough to lose it for the rest of the team. If they start Sanchez, I hope we don't regret the decision and that he stays healthy, and will equally hope for the win.
I didn't read all the posts but here is my take on Clem. He looked pretty shakey in the first half on Sunday. But it was the guys first start in two years so that is not a shock. I thought he started improving a lot in the second half. But most important he did enough to win and avoided mistakes that could have hurt us. So IMO he did fine. I would expect an improvment for his next start though. I thought during the game that the annoucers were really harsh on Clemmens and the Jets in general.
Oh i agree he's not but i think the Jets may view him as such and know that Clemens is a goner after this season.
