Let me rephrase... if the Saints are crowding the line and stopping Jones every play because he doesn't have the speed to keep them honest, then they need to mix Greene in to see if he can be more effective. Even if Jones was doing his job last Sunday, there's a tremendous difference between him and Washington since Washington can get through the hole in a hurry and make moves... even if he's doing his job, he's still hurting the offense by not having the physical ability to overcome the opposing defense stacking the box. We need to at least see what Greene can do if the Jets continue to get the same results out of Jones that they've been seeing.
Leon didn't do much against the stacked box either. He was more effective because he was in on more favorable situations. I want to see Greene out there as much as the next guy, but if he is put in the same situations as Jones was I don't see how he could be more effective. I'd bet the Saints will stack the box. Just like everyone else has.
Leon's situations are more favorable by default since he's a threat in so many more ways. Opposing defenses have to respect him every time he's on the field, because they can't just assume he's either going to take a draw, an off-tackle, or a cut-back... he can do anything anywhere on the field and for that fact alone he's more dangerous. Unfortunately, if the Jets want Washington to have a long career then they can't turn to him to take the full load... the Jets NEED the 2nd running back, and if Jones is that back, and he's averaging less than 2 yards per carry excluding the 20+ yard runs, then someone else needs to do the job, plain and simple. The offensive line definitely needs to do a better job but Jones ability is a part of the problem. He's not getting screwed, Leon makes that apparent.
Most of the good gains Leon got against the Titans were in passing situations where the defense didn't stack the box. If simply having Leon on the field makes it a more favorable situation why didn't he do well when he faced the stacked box? I'm all for keeping Leon out there more - he's a tremendous talent and I think there were a couple of runs last week that he could have turned into big gains where TJ didn't. One was his bad run that I referenced, another was iffy, but a guy with Leons skill set could have done it. I don't really buy the Leon needs less carries for a long career but whatever. Most of Jones' runs last week would have been the same result with most any back. You can't look at the YPC without taking the situations into context. It's just not that simple.
He's got to be healthy, but it's almost as though they're afraid of losing him to a re-injury. If that's the case, I can see why they haven't been utilizing him as a D softener. I don't agree with it, but I get it. As far as the overall run game, I keep saying we need to see more of a NE style offense with Leon in the game. It's frustrating the hell out of me. Part of me wants to believe that they're just bringing the playbook along slowly to aid Sanchez, but I have a tough time believing that when I see how quickly he's learning and adapting. In that Baltimore game, he suffered from stiff neck. He was staring down a single receiver rather than checking down to his other options. In the very next preseason game, he was rubbernecking. He'd rapidly snap his head to look off the defenders, then go to his initial read. Finally, by the first week of the season he got it. He was checking down properly and utilizing his entire offense. That's amazing. The fact that he's been able to adjust his game so quickly has me wondering why we're stalling in certain areas. Maybe this is the week we get to see a bit more out of the playbook and we see the defense get stretched laterally a bit more in the run game.
I am putting Jones carries in context... the fact is, when he's on the field, teams know to move up because when he gets the ball he's slow and won't go anywhere. Look at it any way you want, defenses don't respect Jones and almost every time he touches the ball it's giving a down away. He has no ability to make something from nothing. Leon has the ability to make something from nothing and when he gets in the game defenses have to treat the down as a passing situation because Leon is a dual threat. Teams have to respect Washington. I'm not suggesting the Jets give up on Jones, but rather get Greene involved to see if he has the ability to make something from nothing. Right now we just don't know. He needs to get carries, that's the bottom line.
when Schotty lets SANCHEZ open it up , our run lanes will be wide open. Mark is carfully being brought along and teams are stacking the box. That will change when they begin to fear Mark's passing attack.
When Jones was in favorable situations like Leon he did much better than the unfavorable situations where he got stuffed. The difference was he didn't see those situations as often because it's not his role. How can you say that teams move up when Jones comes in but they don't respect him? That makes no sense. Yet they still stack the box on 1st and 10 if Leon is in. You're just making shit up. The difference is the down & distance and offensive formation. I want to see him too. I just don't think you're going to see him doing much more than Jones if he's getting crushed by guys behind the LOS.
I doubt Jones role is to run into the pile and fall and get stuffed after a loss of 1, which happens at an alarmingly high rate. Teams move up on Jones because they know he's absolutely no threat whatsoever to bust through into the second level and take off like Washington can. Once in a while Jones will bust one out, but it's either been at the end of the game or in lieu of a holding penalty. And no, I'm not making shit up. Taking swipes at me isn't going to diminish the argument we have. And your last line is an opinion. That's why seeing Greene can only be beneficial. If he does no better than Jones, then oh well at least we tried. If he DOES do better, it might be time for a change. He can't possibly do worse...
edge is right, Jones just does not have a skillset to keep defenses honest when they are stacking the box. He needs either a superior road-grading O-line or a QB that keeps safeties out of the box so the LBs have to cover an edge. You either run him up the middle or pull 3 OL for a sweep to the outside, because his lateral movement is terrible and his cutbacks aren't effective enough to capitalize on brief holes opened by the O-line. Jones is also playing like a hollow body, and he sometimes does that. Yes, they meet him in the backfield, but there are guys smaller than him that don't fall backwards 2 yards when they are hit. It's a problem of leverage that he has corrected in the past (2008 comes to mind) but he isn't doing right now. Say what you want about Leon, but the Titans had the box stacked a few times and Leon had positive gains without even a lead blocker to take out the first LB in the play. He took them right up the middle. Why? Because they had to cover the edges, they couldn't send 4 at the O-line and depend on the lateral movement of their LBs because it's not good enough to catch Leon. TJ is a very limited player for us in this situation. If we're going to ground and pound it, we need the fresh legs of this rookie that doesn't go down on first contact and fights for yards. I don't know about his health, but I do know that the least of this kid's problems is leverage.
I counted one run like this against the Tits. For the most part he was getting hit by 2 guys before going down. Yet Jones has 2 runs of 20+ this year and Washington has 0. Go figure. Sorry if you think me calling you out is taking a swipe at you. This isn't personal for me, I think you're a good poster, I just disagree with your argument. You made something up and I called you on it. It is an opinion. I don't think Greene will do better when getting blasted by 2 guys in the backfield. If he does than he sure as hell should be starting. Why would he be on the bench if he has that ability?
See, the part about Greene is the central theme to my argument... which has to do with the fact that I think Greene CAN do it, and DOES have that ability. I think the Jets have been overly cautious with working Greene back into the gameplan since his ribs probably weren't or aren't 100%. That's the kind of injury that can linger if it isn't allowed to just heal, and being that Jones is SUPPOSED to be effective, there really wasn't a huge need for Greene to come in. However, Jones performance over the first 3 games now says otherwise... if the Jets start the Saints game and Jones is running no more effectively than he has, they'd be crazy not to start giving Greene some carries. Jones has 3 long carries this season, 2 towards the end of a game and one when a holding penalty has been committed. Just because Leon hasn't done it yet doesn't mean that he won't... we both know that Leon has the ability to be a touchdown waiting to happen every single time he touches the ball. Further, the average run is more important than the breakout run, and Leon is smoking Jones in that department... it's not even close. I know you're not making this argument personal, but I'm defending myself in saying that I'm not making anything up. I'd say we perceive what's happening different, but I know what I see and it isn't like last year... Jones is more ineffective now than at any time during his entire tenure with the Jets. In my opinion, he's playing himself out of his job and off this team. To end this, I'll leave you with this masterpiece... pay attention to 24 seconds in, as well as others... enjoy: [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB09ZcOE_co[/YOUTUBE]
Very good points. And if Sanchez continues to have success in the passing game that could garner some respect in itself and open the run game. Of course TJ does look slow compared to Leon but putting in some passing plays when he is in there can help him and Sanchez as well. I have a sneaky suspicion that there is something wrong with Greene. Maybe rolling him out towards mid season is the idea but he has practically no work. One thing is for sure no matter what Sanchez does this year he is a rookie and teams will dare him to beat them.
I don't doubt Leon is the bigger threat to break a long one. Of course he is. To say Jones has NO ability to do that is incorrect though. If the lack of success is Jones' fault then they should give Leon and maybe Greene all those carries. I don't believe it is. Time will tell I suppose.
Ryan said Sanchez had several delay of game penalties in practice Thursday, meaning the Saints multiple fronts could be bothering him. Sanchez must also contend with crowd noise in the Superdome. Anyone think that may be a type of smokescreen? Or is there something behind it.
I don't think Ryan cares to much about smoke screens, he seems to be a shoot from the hip kinda guy. He wants to tell you he's running it down your throat and do it. The kids a rookie, this wouldn't surprise me at all.
That's how Raheem "The Dream" Morris is. It's amazing the different types of success those two coaches are having...:rofl:
I totally agree; we need to be a little different. I say Greene = Go Wow, How could anyone be unhappy with Sanchez's play? Not sayin' u r, but I think he has totally answered the bell and for the first time in a long time I think the Jets' future is bright. So far, he is way better than I expected him to be and we have beaten some very good football teams.
http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkjets/statistics?team=NYJ TJ - 3.8 YPC - Long 39 - TDs 2 LW - 4.0 YPC - Long 19 - TDs 0 Both have more than 40 carries.
I think Greene needs to get mixed in this week. Thomas Jones, for the most part, tries to avoid defenders and goes down after first contact. Shonn Greene can't get to the outside, but he is tremendous after contact and can make holes. He contrasts perfectly with Leon.
