Okay, well this is the first I'm hearing this. Maybe I missed the other times you said it. But I seem to remember you defending the decision to take a knee in the Playoffs. And I thought I remember you saying that we made a mistake getting rid of Herm and that KC won out by acquiring him, which definitely was not the case.
I never defended the decision to take a knee. I criticized Hermk for that as well as many other things through the years. People think b/c I thought he was good that i thought he never did any wrong and that isn't the case. That is the perception and it is wrong. I still think our K needed to make the kick but it was a dumb decision to take the knee. I said it was time for Herm to go when he left b/c he made the first move. I would liekd to have kept him but once he explored other options it was time to move on.
But what you call 'good' some others call 'decent' or [insert synonym for 'mediocre']. Getting to the Playoffs was nice and fun for a franchise that hadn't been there a lot, but look what happened when he got to the Playoffs... There were plenty of other coaches around the league in that same time period who did just as much as -- even more than Herm that are considered 'good.' To me, that makes Herm merely average.
Please do not forget we had a DYNASTY team in our division and getting to the div rd of the playoffs sure beats not making it, right? Look at our histopry then look at what we did under him, it's pretty damn impressive for someone who can't coach AND for someone who had such a "crappy" QB like Chad. Of course not but that was reason #1, the K has to make one of those kicks.
Again, when you compare Herm to our history, he did a good job. But why are we comparing him to our history? What does that really mean? Are we competing against our history? When you compare him to other coaches/teams - the actual opponents - around the NFL, he was mediocre.
From 2001-2005 AFC: playoff apps: Dungy 5(3 playoff wins) BB 4(10 playoff wins) Cowher 4(7 playoff wins) Herm 3(2 playoff wins) Shanahan 3(1 playoff win) Billick 2(1 playoff win) Fisher 2(2 playoff wins) Vermeil 1(0 playoff wins) 4th in playoff apps and 4th in playoff wins. That's alot better than mediocre.
Compare Herm's Playoff success over his entire HC career to other good coaches in the entire NFL. '01-'05 Appearances/Wins Dungy: 5/3 *Belichick: 4/10 *Cowher: 4/7 *Reid: 4/6 *Gruden: 3/4 *Holmgren: 3/2 Herm: 3/2 Shanahan: 3/1 *Fox: 2/5 Coughlin: 1/0 Fisher: 2/2 '06-'08 Appearances/Wins *Dungy: 3/4 *Belichick: 2/4 Cowher: 0/0 (retired '06) Reid: 2/3 Gruden: 1/0 Holmgren: 2/2 Herm: 1/0 Shanahan: 0/0 Fox: 1/0 *Coughlin: 3/4 Fisher: 2/0 * designates either SB victory or appearance during that era All of those coaches either went to or won a SB during that time except for Fisher and Shanahan, both of whom had already won SB's before this period, so that makes them better. Herm is the only one who couldn't even get his teams past Round 2. Herm is at the bottom with Fox, Fisher, and Shanahan -- again, all of whom had either been to or won a SB, except for Herm. So... Total Appearances/Wins '01-'08 *Dungy: 8/7 *Belichick: 6/14 *Cowher: 4/7 (retired '06) *Reid: 6/9 *Gruden: 4/4 *Holmgren: 5/4 *Coughlin 4/4 *Fox: 3/5 Fisher: 4/4 Herm: 4/2 Shanahan: 3/1 One of the most telling signs is both of Herm's teams digressed rather than progressed, which ultimately led to his departure. Those are good coaches on that list; by my standards, Herm wouldn't be on that list of good ones. To me, reaching the Playoffs 4 times in 8 seasons and only winning twice - while never getting past the Divisional game - is not that good. It's pretty much mediocre. But if that's 'good' for you, then fine... whatever floats your boat.
Make conference title games. I'd be impressed with that. Getting ousted in the WC and Divisional Round and never making it to title games is for Edwards and Wade Phillips types- you know, coaches who are sorta, kinda, maybe good.
Exactly! The Jets were a rebuilt loaded squad when Herm came in. 4 first round draft picks with a rookie year under their belts. Martin, Coles a loaded DL and OL and a solid QB without an injured shoulder in Pennington and a solid vet back up with Vinny. Herm choose to let Chad rot when he was ready and cost us a chance at a bye and a big run in 02. He left the team in ruins when he was pushed out. Performance is not measured in failure in the playoffs for coaches it's measured by what you do with the talent you brought in and is the team moving forward or backwards after you have a chance to put your imprint on it.
No, but Fisher and Shanahan aren't gutless and would have made the kick easier (at a very tough field for Ks) by trying to advance the ball rather than Herming the game away, calling for the QB to take a knee.
that's what is upsetting. They run the clock and move backwards on a field that makes it impossible to hit FGs from 40+ yrds out. Especially if you are the away team in January. Herm/Hackett are inexusably soft and gay.
Yea, untill you look at... Not quite game set nd match at all. Herm is soft and mediocre. Junc, bless him, has shown a lot of love for soft and mediocre former Jets. I'm glad herm is not around any more. He's not that good of a football coach.
I don't care what Herm did in KC, this is about what he did w/ the Jets so '06-'08 tells doesn't really matter in this discussion. The NFC was incredibly weak so it's a little unfair to use SB apps for the NFC coaches as most of them wouldn't have made a SB if their teams played in the AFC. As it is you have shown that herm was tied for 5th in apps in that period in all the NFL which again is far from mediocre. and from '0-1'08(w/ his 3 years in KC) he was still 5th in playoff apps. Not bad for a guy who can't coach and for a guy who supposedly didn't have a good QB, right? If his QB stays healthy or if his K makes one of 2 makeable kicks he would have a conf title game at least. He did play in a very tough AFC and in a div w/ a dynasty team. He inherited a team in decline, a team that watched coach after coach walk out on them and he turned us around going back in the right direction again. You have no clue what "loaded" is. Again, why did all those coaches walk out on such amazing talent? We were loaded on the DL? w/ who? a 2nd year Shaun Ellis, an aging jason ferguson who only played in contract years?(and missed Herm's first year in 2001) We had Curtis but does Herm get any credit for Curtis performing better under him than he did for BP/Groh? Our OL was loaded? It was good but loaded? Young, Fabini and Jenkins were average players and we'd lose Thomas to FA after his 2nd year. Now Chad was solid? even though he had never started a game now he was solid? Wow! All you do is criticize Chad but now you are criticing Herm for letting him sit in 2001? Did you know Chad was hurt all throughout 2000? did you know in 2001 he was on his 3rd system in 3 years? did you know that vinny was a great practice player and that Vinny would lead us to a 10-6 record in 2001? I disagree w/ taking the knee, he shouldn't have done that but he had a shot from 4 yards closer moments earlier and missed too and imagine if we passed it and Chad was sacked or we turned it over, imagine the criticism then. You weren't wrong, this was a discussion about Herm as the HC of the NYJ. '06-'08 are meaningless and even w/ '06-'08 he is 5th in postseason apps.
Chad was more than solid before he got hurt and he should have outright started in 02. Ferguson in 02 was not an ageing vet he's still a productive NFL player. You also forget that they had an outstanding secondary in 01 and 02 Farrior, Abraham, Santana and Coles both those years and Richie Anderson. The team was loaded and underperformed and the fact is the team was desimated under his watch. Switching to the 4/3 which made our D Line look like shit was Herm's brainstorm. Examples of Herm's stupidity. Forceing a cover 2 4/3 on a pre built to win now 3/4. Bringing in a WC OC to turn the O over to Chad and not doing it until Vinny had played us out of what could have been a 12 win season and home playoffs. After Chad was hurt bringing in Dinger to install a down field passing O on a team that had a QB with an injured shoulder who couldn't throw long anymore. Result Killed both the QB and the star running back and the backup QB.
Now Chad was more than solid before he got hurt. I love how you flip flop, before he got hurt he never led us to a title game, did he? Why does your criteria keep changing? Outstanding secondary in '01 and '02? In '01 they had Aaron Glenn who was good(though always slightly overrated as big WRs would toast him) and Marcus Coleman(medciore at best corner) at the corners and an old Victor Green(still solid) and Marcus Robinson at S. That's outstanding? In 2002 we had Aaron Beasley, Donnie Abe, Sam Garnes and Robinson- that is outstanding? We had farrior in 2001, had his only big year for us then left. Santana was a rookie in 2001 and didn't play until November. Coles was coming into his own in 2001. Richie Anderson was average at best. Ignore the dumpoffs in 2000 that led to his PB app. We had no WRs in 2000 and Vinny was forced to dump to Richie and Curtis all year b/c our great HC and OC thought it was wise for us to throw 631+ times rather than pound it w/ Curtis. You are showing you don't have a clue what a loaded team looks like and you STILL keep ignroing the question of why would so many Coaches walk out on us if they thought we had a loaded roster? Herm forced the 4/3 on us like BP forced to 3/4 on us making a guy like Huigh Douglas useless in 1997 and dumping him for nothing. Herm and his DCs also changed things up in both '01 and '0-2 and our Ds down the stretch in those years was much better than early on. In 2000 under the old system Vinny threw 25 INTs and we choked away a playoff spot, how can you complain about the WCO when we then made the playoffs in 2001 and Vinyn cut his INTs almost in half? Oh and to make the playoffs we won on the WEST COAST against a very good raider team. I thought EC teams couldn't win on the WC? Herm has made many more mistakes than the few you have listed, no HC is perfect and Herm certainly was not. he was a good HC who elevated this team pointing us back in the right direction rather than going backward like we had been for 2 years.
