Yes DWare, even old dawgs need to be reminded of the fundamentals. That's why Olines have coaches to teach blocking schemes and DLines have coaches that teach their systems as well. If players don't "wrap up", it needs to be practiced until they do it right. Attention to detail is tedious I agree but necessary. Results, results, results... Especially with a team that's as system oriented as the Jets are. They plan specifically to the team their playing and if for any reason, the team they're playing isn't doing the same things they've done so far? The gameplan becomes useless (SF, Seattle, Denver). How about something as simple as changing their cleats in bad weather so they don't look like they're playing at Wohlman's Iceskating Rink. Bad playcalls usually get stopped behind the line of scrimmage or go for no gain. Bad playcalls tend to reveal themselves in defenders looking like they were in the huddle too. Yeah, unless one is willing to constantly give passes to a team because you're a fan, you might notice these things on occasion over the decades.. Ummm, you do realize that you posted a rationalization why the SB isn't important right? What is the point of playing if not to win a championship? Are they in it just for a gamecheck? Are they simply punching a clock on Sundays? Every SB is important. Its one of two reasons why the NFL plays every Sunday. The other reason of course is the Money. Damn, I would have thought even a Diehard, koolaid drinking, ganggreen smoking Fan like you would know that "The Ring is the thing". If this Franchise isn't in this to win it all, then they're doing their fanbase a dissservice. There are cheaper forms of "entertainment" available. Fair? After 40 years I'm not interested in "fair", only in winning in my lifetime. Mangini appears to have hit a wall. Mangini remade the team in 2 years and now he's on the clock to show results. 10-6/ 4-12 and now perhaps 9-7. Next year's schedule is a royal bitch so even if Mangini gets another year, and I happen to think he will, he'll be under the fisheye from TC thru week 17 in '09. Do you think fans being asked to buy a 20K PSL give a shit about being "fair" to anybody? We're not the Cubs... Yet. Because we've seen where it goes. Always outcoached, always outmaneuvered, always one step behind the opposition. Thinking small is being happy with 9-7 and diminishing the importance of the SB. If a new, EXPERIENCED, coach comes in and takes over this team, I'd be more willing so "see where it goes". If this team had been a perennial contender over the last 4 decades, perhaps I would be more open to having Mangini continue his OJT. I'm not open to that anymore. Herm was the same thing. OJT. Tried to turn this team into Tampa Bay North and it didn't work. It didn't work in KC either. If Woody is planning so sell more PSL, especially with the distinct possibility that Farve isn't coming back, he damn sure better do something quick. Especially if the Giants make the SB or go deep in the post season. Finally DWare, we agree on something. Passing the blame is bad. Pinning the blame is good if its done accurately. Perhaps we don't hire guys with thin resumes would be a start. Parcells, and I hate to bring this up for fear of hijackers, turned around Miami. Turned around Dallas. Turned around the Jets too. We need a big name coach here D. This is New York, not Kansas City. Schotts is hit or miss with his schemes and very well might have coached himself out of a HC job with his ineffective game specific plans. Sutton has to go period. He's the equivalent of Paul Hackett now and is pretty much toxic in the minds of Jet Fans. Woody has PSL's to sell. Very expensive ones. This franchise has to make better decisions in its leadership choices. We don't have the luxury of letting a coach stay 4,5 years hoping he suddenly has a eureka moment and "gets it". It didn't work with Herm and it won't work with Mangini either. Let them cut their teeth someplace else on somebody else's time and dime. Woody and Tanns had better wake up PDQ. They're not playing with house money anymore with the advent of this new stadium unless they're only interested in "Corporate Fans".
Look. I've been harping on a few things all season long: 1. No shotgun on 3rd and short. 2. Apply some pressure on the opposing QB If you say they are the fault of the players, you are seriously delusional. For whatever reason, 4 WR split set does not work for the Jets offense. By now, the coaching staff should know it. Why keep doing that WHILE KNOWING YOU WILL FAIL? Same with 1-2-8 defense. WHY KEEP DOING THAT WHEN YOU KNOW YOU WILL FAIL?
A big part of coaching is being able to tweak your game-plans week after week, to adjust for the fact that team watch film, and figure out your tendencies. If a team watches the film, and figures out a way to neutralize Kris Jenkins & our run D, it's the coaches' responsibility to counter it by adjusting the scheme- the stunts, the blitzes, the gap responsibilities- and show the opposing team something they weren't prepared for. Kerry Rhodes said it best. Other teams come into the games, and they don't do the same stuff the Jets saw on tape. Instead, they come out and attack the Jets where they've shown to be vulnerable. The Jets come out and 'play Jets football' regardless. Once you hit a certain point in the season, there's enough film out there, that any worthwhile coach will be able to pick up your tendencies and exploit your weaknesses. You're looking at it as too black and white. The nature of coaching changes as the season goes on. And Mangini & Co have shown to be completely incompetent when it comes to making the proper adjustments week-to-week, and in games, and putting their players in the best position to succeed. Period
I have never said coahcing played no part, I just think it'as too easy to blame everything on the coaches. I'm am ranting on favre but it's not all his fault, I do believe w/ better QB play we'd have won 2-3 more games in spite of some of the coaching problems but I also do see some positives from the staff and it's still a young staff. I just hate seeing a new coach every few years, it's not good for a franchise to have that turnover every few years.
But it's worse for a franchise to stick with somebody who refuses to learn from his own mistakes. And that's what Mangini's been. He's done the same things over and over for three seasons. After the first two, he went out and bought every player on the market who would fit his schemes and plugged them in. And what did we see? We saw, after a brief gelling period, a team with enormous potential. But then NE saw a hole in our pass defense, and exploited it. And then SF & Denver found a way to lessen Jenkins' effectiveness. And throughout the season, teams figured out what kind of blitzes our OL had not been trained to pick up (namely, disguised speed from the right side, and/or two DL rushing over the LG & LT). Teams figured out that we stubbornly leave our LBs in man coverage on RBs and TEs, and even occasionally WRs that they simply cannot cover. And as these problems go uncorrected, they get exploited. And week after week, more holes start showing up. And Mangini has failed, even once in his three seasons, to identify these holes and successfully change things up to eliminate them. Of course, you'd rather try to get some sort of continuity. But Keeping one guy in there over a number of years is done under the assumption that he will learn from his prior mistakes and improve year to year. Mangini just hasn't done that, at all. Hold onto him another season, and I guarantee we'll start seeing the same garbage once we get halfway through next year...
Blocking schemes and defensive systems are a little more complicated than tackling. Tackling is a basic football skill. Blocking and defensive schemes are something that vary from team to team. You know what kind of cleats they wore yesterday? Cause it seems like we had alot less trouble with the snow than they did...they were the ones who fumbled twice. Bad playcalls usually geet stopped behind the line of scrimmage or for no gain...how many times were we stuffed yesterday? I'm not giving passes at all. You guys just really, really want me to agree with you that everything must be torn apart. If I hire a smart, young, hungry guy like Mangini...I don't ask him to build a team for 3 years to play with it for one year. Thats just not good business. Am I wrong? They're going to play it again next year right? And the year after? And every year until the league shuts down? The goal isn't to win ONE championship, it's to win many. If we don't win it this year, what exactly is holding us back from next years? Or the year after? The point of playing is to win a championship, I didn't say otherwise. I said whats so big and major about this one...and not only that but I'm the only fucking person on this board that seems to think they CAN win the SB if they get into the playoffs this year. This is just totally going AROUND my point. Then the fanbase can move onto those cheaper forms? I mean...no one here seems to be happy at all with the team anyway right? All they've done is cause many here 40 years of suffering and pain and blah blah blah blah. Why would anyone want to stick with that anyway? Fair? After 40 years I'm not interested in "fair", only in winning in my lifetime. Mangini appears to have hit a wall. Mangini remade the team in 2 years and now he's on the clock to show results. 10-6/ 4-12 and now perhaps 9-7. Next year's schedule is a royal bitch so even if Mangini gets another year, and I happen to think he will, he'll be under the fisheye from TC thru week 17 in '09. Do you think fans being asked to buy a 20K PSL give a shit about being "fair" to anybody? We're not the Cubs... Yet. Ah...always outcoached...I'm sure thats what Jeff Fisher was saying...BB was saying... We're...9-7? I didn't know the season finished. Shit...what happened to that last game? And while I'm sure we'll nail us a winning, experienced, super brainy HC in fantasy land where Bill Cowher is more than willing to put up with the crap that comes with coaching a NY team....EXPERIENCE is something that's built...it doesn't magically appear. Oh, and another word for "experienced" in the NFL is "retread." Only a really, really fucked up fan base thinks like this. Sorry, 99% of those 40 years have NOTHING to do with Mangini. YOU GUYS are handing that to him here, that doesn't mean it's actually true. Um...roster talent with Herm shrank...roster talent with Mangini grew...there is a huge fundamental difference there. One that goes casually ignored by this fan base because fact is...no one here has ANY idea what they want but to win. Most of you don't know jack shit about Bill Cowher, but assume he'd be perfect here and even that he'd want to come here. Thats part of being a fan, but it doesn't mean that it actually means something. Yea, because PSL's won't sell....OK, I'm sure thats their big worry... You're making a huge assumption if you think the guys you're pinning the blame on is accurate. If that was true, I'd be on this board. And we don't NEED anything but to win. You guys WANT a big name coach, we don't NEED one. Again, there is a huge fundamental difference here. How do you know Schott has coached himself out of a HC job? Even if he did, you REALLY think this guy wouldn't get scooped up in two seconds flat by someone? Same for Mangini. You think these guys would last long if they hit the open market as coaches? Cause that's not going to happen, and whoever gets them will know they have a steal. Seriously, if we fired Mangini he instantly becomes the top HC candidate available on the market thats actually a lock to coach again (as in, not Cowher) and won't be a first timer (Spags, Fraizer, etc). Why don't we have the luxury? It's not like the new stadium's going to have a 2 year shelf life....and it's not like we're some super contender who fell off and we're trying to find our way back...so wheres the fire? Again: What makes you think the PSL's won't sell? Why do you keep bringing up Herm anyway? Nothing about him is similar to Mangini...he doesn't work the team as hard...he didn't draft as well...players don't run Mangini's ship...they don't even have similar football philosophies...I mean the comparisons you're making between the two are just so vague. They better wake up because I want to win this year too. I don't agree with having this franchise looking for a new coach to open up it's new stadium...doesn't make sense on any level unless that coach is clearly better than Mangini.
All you need to know about coaching is take a look at yesterdays game. I counted several times that we were out numbered in the box and SEA rattled off a big run. They spread us out, and we had 2 deep safeties and only 5 guys in the box. A high school team could run on that defense. You cannot always keep 2 safeties back. Take the TD to the TE. Who was covering? Harris was beat, the last time I checked maybe you want your run stopper to stop the run at the 3 yard line not cover the damn TE. This is all coaching. It is Mangini, because any HC with half a brain would have already fixed this problem if it was the DC. The announcer is calling for pressure, the damn cheerleaders are probably wondering why we don't pressure other teams, and not only do we not pressure the other QB, we drop so damn deep with 2 safeties because we are afraid of being beat deep that we vacate all the underneath zones. Its not the talent, it is not he players it is the damn coaches. I don't even want to talk about the offense and how bad it is. I have been talking about that for 3 years. Holmgren made Mangini look like a ball boy!!! Bring in Cowher, Holmgren, Ryan, anyone but this assclown.
Are you fucking kidding me? Those 2 things fall directly on the coaching staff....anyone who actually knows something about football would know that.
Hell of an argument. These guys are made millionaires to be taught to do something they were taught to do all through the pros. That's like me getting a big sales job for a major supplier, and then asking "so how do I sell?" I'd either be fired, or they'd laugh at me because they thought I was joking. Teaching grown ass men who've played football their whole lives to tackle...since I can't fire you I assume you're joking. In which case: :rofl2: I love that the main arguments refuting this revolve around "anyone who disagrees with this doesn't know anything about football."
from Rotoworld on the Patriots yesterday. Now that's how you play in bad weather: Adjusting to blizzard-like weather, the Pats lined up two TEs, put G/C Russ Hochstein at fullback, and used a power attack. The Patriots ran the ball 42 times.
^^ You've completely ignored the point that anybody who has ever stepped foot on a football field will tell you-> It doesn't matter how much talent you have, if you're out of position (due to play design, gap assignments, blitz schemes, coverage mismatches, etc) it results in attempted arm tackles. And guess what we've seen a whole lot of? Attempted arm tackles. Your argument is paper thin because it doesn't have any roots in the game as it is played on the field.
So it's the coaches fault that players aren't positioning themselves? Please. This just gets better and better. Is it Mangini's fault for Coles' drops too? Didn't put him through enough catching balls classes or something? Good players can tackle. Good players put themselves into position to tackle. Professional football players should not be have to TAUGHT how to tackle. Schemes or no schemes, different packages or not different packages.
You've obviously never been anywhere near a football field in your life. That's all I can say about that. Re-read my post, and try to think about how the game actually works, then get back to me. The players do what is drawn up in the playbook. If we've got a guy Ellis' size playing the strongside B gap, and Pace playing outside technique of the TE- guess what happens when they run off tackle? That's right, players trying to fight through blocks, and reaching, instead of clogging holes and making solid tackles. Excusable once. Not excusable when it happens game after game after game. If you've got a guy like David Harris drawn up to play man-to-man on the TE in the RZ, with no help, you're putting him at a tremendous disadvantage. He's got to check run, and then come flying across the field just to get near his responsibility. When a player is put out of position so badly we see plays such as the TD yesterday, or missed tackles, due to the player not having time to break down and make a proper play. I can go on and on. But I think you're arguing just to argue, not because you know what you're talking about.
Coaches coach at any level, they aren't sitting in an office eating popcorn and watching film of opposing team all day. No, they don't coach the simplest fundamentals as you would try to diminish his post by implying. They do, however, locate problem areas in a player's game and try to fix them with technique clinics and mentoring sessions. If a player takes bad angles to the ball carrier, they work on his anticipation by telling him what parts of the ball carrier's body, the head the hips, the feet, to pay attention to and they give them tips to get past that issue. A player's tackling techniques can fall off through age, such as a player getting older who relied on his strength or speed isn't quite strong or quick enough enough to pull it off, having to develop a different leverage to make tackles he used to make easily earlier in his career. Getting penetration on an O-line requires a ton of technique with hand-fighting and evasion moves that it doesn't appear any of our front 7 have improved on in 3 seasons. If they beat their man on the first move, they penetrate, if not, they are hopelessly taken out of the play. I'm not in the camp to fire Mangini yet... but I'm not too far off, either. I don't want yet another regime overhaul, I am so sick of that nonsense. But seriously, Schotty wasn't such a hot shit in 2006, either. The effectiveness of his gameplans are like a bingo card, sometimes we play a team that he calls lights-out, and other times it's like he just closes his eyes and picks plays regardless of how we match up against a team or how effective we've been earlier in the game in certain aspects. His refusal to run against bad run defenses is mind-boggling. 'Think small, live small'. That's like our CS's mantra.
I reached that conclusion a while ago, so I just put him on ignore. It took me this long to realize it, but the guy is just a troll. He thinks he is being smart by constantly making these retarded arguments that are obviously wrong, and his goal is simply to force people to waste time in rebutting them. Just ignore him and he'll go away, although at this point the Jets have shit the bed so much there's not much reason for any of us to still post.
It is true, he must go. Everything he does is game-plan specific that he neglects establishing an identity. I do realize that you must plan each week differently for each team, but these plans should play to your strengths...he always feels he can attack a weakness of the other team, as if they're gameplan does not change week to week..he looks lost. We should be a RUN FIRST TEAM..instead we pass when we should run and run when the opposing defense is waiting for it. The offense which is supposed to rely in deception only deceives nobody. This is all so sad!
Please explain to me why a safety is not covering the TE on the 3 yard line with PA? If you have the MLB cover him then they score on the run or the pass!!!!!
Spoken like someone who has never played football in their life. When players are messing up basic things like missing tackles you have to go back to practicing them, how else are they going to correct it? Penalties are a direct result of a team not being prepared to play...the coaching staffs job is to prepare the team to play on Sunday. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about this. I'd be willing to bet every coach in the NFL would agree.
And thats understandable. The next step would be to prove that Mangini doesn't do such a thing. And is this something you're accusing the CS of not doing? Based on...player play? Why can't it just be player play?
